Subjects: Net Zero
E&OE
STARTS 10.25 am
Ends 10.37 am
MARK LEVY
Now we’ve been saying it here on 2GB for a long time, but the push to net zero is one fraught with danger. While it’s easy to say this is what we need to do for the environment, there are a number of other issues that come up when we start talking about net zero, because really, net zero is something that will destroy our economy. We’ve already seen energy heavy industries suffer, like the metals manufacturing sector, and there’s also the ongoing concern that a fully renewable grid will have reliability issues. Well, now thankfully, we’re seeing one party push back, The Nationals have long had members against this net zero move, but it’s in a fractured Coalition. We’re seeing a little more happened in this space, and one former Leader of The Nationals, Barnaby Joyce, is set to bring a Private Member’s Bill to Parliament this week to end this net zero push and another Nationals’ Leader, Michael McCormack, has said he’s going to back it. Michael McCormack, The Nationals’ Member for Riverina, he’s on the line from Parliament House. Michael, good morning to you.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Good morning, Mark.
MARK LEVY
Well, I know today in one of the opinion pieces in The Australian, yourself and Barnaby are being described as the “Old Bulls” of the Country Party and the “Odd Couple” in The Nationals. How does that sit with you?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Who would have thought? Who would have thought? But look, it’s not about us, I really want to emphasise, it’s not about us, it’s about the people we represent. And when you’ve got the Riverina electorate just being littered with these wind towers, with these solar factories and you know, you just run through the list of names, Binalong, Bookham, Bowning, Crookwell, Gregadoo, Mangoplah, Maxwell, The Rock, Yass, it’s like I’ve been everywhere, man. And who is going everywhere? These shysters who come in, they’re representing largely internationally owned companies, they’re just riding roughshod over local people’s interests and concerns, by dividing and conquering, their signing up some, not others, they’re ruining families, they’re spoiling friendships which have been going for generations. And it’s simply not right. I mean, imagine city types, who are obviously listening to this show now, having 200-metre towers plonked in their backyard and see how they feel and going all day this “shwoosh, shwoosh, swoosh”, I mean the reverberations are enough to drive people mad, and they are.
MARK LEVY
Well, Michael, just on that, I mean and it’s a credit to James Willis, a former colleague of mine who’s now at the Telegraph, I mean he’s had it in the Telegraph the last two days of what they’re planning down around Binalong …
MICHAEL McCORMACK
… Binalong and Bowning …
MARK LEVY
… I mean these towers will stand as tall as the Crown Casino in Sydney, and we’re talking about prime agricultural land.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
We are and those people who live in Binalong and Bowning, I mean, they’re in an area which has, quite frankly, done enough. They’re a drop kick away from Yass, literally, as the crow flies. You know, you go there and you see all these wind towers, but you know, they want to put more, and more, and more. And why should their lives and livelihoods be upset in this way for this rush to renewables? There has to be a much better way. And then of course, you add the 28,000 kilometres of transmission lines that they want to put through the place as well. I mean we’ve just seen a project shelved near Yass, a solar factory, which was going to actually be bigger, larger than the Yass township itself. This is madness, and people have had it to the back teeth! Now, the city types, they’re not suffering like these country people who have done so much. And when COVID was happening, and you know, I hate to say, but all the metropolitan people, many of them, pulled the doona up over their heads to pretend that it wasn’t happening. It was the country folk who rolled their sleeves up and continued to grow the food and fibre, who continued to provide the resources to keep the balance of payments going. And honestly, they’ve given enough when it comes to renewables, you know, it, it’s just madness.
MARK LEVY
Well, the other thing, and not to make it, you know, metro versus country, but the one thing that we’re all on the same footing on is the fact that we’re still paying too much for electricity and that’s the common complaint we get from listeners who are tuning in from all parts of Australia. I do need to ask you, though, Michael, I mean you, you’ve previously supported the idea of net zero, but what’s changed and why have you changed your thought process?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, back in 2021, when it was put to our party room, our farmers were telling us that they needed the trade to continue. We were trying to forge new trade links with Europe and a lot of those negotiations, and a lot of those arrangements, indeed, were incumbent on the fact that net zero had to be part of Australia’s arrangements. And so, I know we were going to one of the cops at the time, Scott Morrison was the Prime Minister, Barnaby Joyce was our Leader, and we agreed to it as party because we were doing it for our farmers who needed the trade, who needed those wine sales, those beef sales et cetera, into Europe because China was doing what China sometimes does and placing barriers upon our goods. It was the right thing to do, I felt at the right time. Things have changed, the world has moved on, and I have to say, when your own electorate is hurting, when you get people like Emma Webb, as James your mate from the Telegraph was only referring to the other day, I spoke to her the other morning , she said it is torturing communities. You get people like James Petersen at Uranquinty who’s got transmission lines going right through his property. You’ve got people in Crookwell like Cheryl O’Donnell, who’s in the shadows of one of these wind towers and it’s affecting her life and her mental health every day of the week, you’ve got to stand up for those people, and that’s what I’m doing.
MARK LEVY
Out of interest, have you spoken to David Littleproud this morning?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
I have not.
MARK LEVY
How do you think he’ll respond to what’s on the front page of The Australian today?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Oh, you’d have to ask him that, quite frankly, but I’ve got to represent the people who send me to Canberra to do a job. And the other thing too is the New South Wales Nationals recently …
MARK LEVY
… That that doesn’t sound, Michael, that doesn’t sound like somebody who is on the same page as his Leader. Is there a bit of friction, a bit of tension between you two?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
No, no, no, no, no. Look, David’s the Leader of the party and I’ve always supported the Leader of the party, The Nationals. I want our party to succeed, I do, I want our party to continue to be the fierce representatives that we are for regional people, but you know the NSW State Conference, recently, of The Nationals, voted to get rid of net zero. I note that the Country Liberal Party in the Northern Territory has done the same, the State conferences in South Australia, ditto. People are turning against net zero for the very reason that it’s going to make people poorer, it’s going to affect these regional communities like nothing else, and we shouldn’t be dividing families and friendships like this, we just shouldn’t. It’s not the Australian way.
MARK LEVY
I know David Littleproud’s been out and about today, he said this morning that he thinks net zero has, quote, “become something about trying to achieve the impossible rather than actually doing what’s sensible.” That sounds like he could very well back this Private Member’s Bill by Barnaby Joyce. Would you welcome that?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, I would, but if you actually went to people and said what is net zero, what actually is it? I doubt whether, you’d probably get a whole heap of different opinions, many of them wouldn’t be right. I mean, net zero refers to a state where the amount of greenhouse gas is released into the atmosphere is balanced by the amount removed. But why should we absolutely spoil our manufacturing opportunities, our industrial base, our farmers, at the expense of what, well, I mean, we’re not going to lower the temperature of the of the globe, I mean …
MARK LEVY
… But that that comment from David Littleproud this morning sounds like he’s on board with what you’re saying?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, that’s good, that’s encouraging.
MARK LEVY
Alright, now, Barnaby Joyce, I noticed he said that he’d back you for Leader if things were to get a little unsteady in the party …
MICHAEL McCORMACK
I’m not running for Leader anytime soon. What I want to see is …
MARK LEVY
… I didn’t even get a chance to ask you the question!
MICHAEL McCORMACK
I’ll let you ask the question Mark!
MARK LEVY
Well, do you want the job again one day?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Oh look, you know, you’re never going to rule your name through, you’re never going to put a pen through your name for the leadership. I don’t know what’s going to happen, I mean, who would know? You know, they say a week is a long time in politics, three years is an eternity. But I’m not going put a red line through my name forevermore, because the moment I do that, they’ll refer back to the Mark Levy interview of today and say, well, that’s what you told Mark Levy back then on the 23rd of July 2025. Why are you suddenly changing your mind now. Look, I’m quite content fiercely representing the interests of Riverina people, that’s what I’ve always done, it’s always my first priority. And that’s what I’ll continue to do.
MARK LEVY
Can you see, though, Michael, why people would probably be raising their eyebrows a little bit when, you know, if I think back to 2018, it was Barnaby who admitted that he that he undermined you and now, all of a sudden, you’re on the same page and we’re talking about if things are unsettled within the party, could you potentially have another crack? I mean, aren’t the comments today aimed at sort of unsettling and ruffling a few feathers in Canberra?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
No, they’re aimed at and, well, only those who believe that ruining the Riverina is a good way to go, if I upset them, then that’s a good thing, quite frankly. You know, I want to represent the people of the Riverina and while the Government has a mandate to govern, it doesn’t have a mandate to ruin my electorate or regional Australia, and that’s what I will fight for every day of the week.
MARK LEVY
Alright, so, let me just throw this one at you, right hypothetically. Say your Leader backs this Private Member’s Bill and the Nationals come to an agreement that net zero should be scrapped, well, what does that mean for the Coalition if the Liberals choose to follow the net zero path, I mean, can you work with the Libs if they stick the net zero?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Well, we’ll just have to wait and see. I mean, there are plenty of Liberals who believe in what …
MARK LEVY
… Well, it could happen …
MICHAEL McCORMACK
… It could, but we’ll just have to wait and see. I mean, it’s a hypothetical. Politics is an interesting game. It involves, every single day, who would have thought Barnaby Joyce and Michael McCormack would be arm in arm in some sort, of as The Australian described today, a bromance. It’s not quite the bromance, but anyway, we always vote the same way.
MARK LEVY
The “Odd Couple”, I think the other one. One last one, on Sussan Ley, you’re a Member of the Coalition, obviously, she’s …
MICHAEL McCORMACK
… And a big supporter of Sussan Ley.
MARK LEVY
She’s the new Opposition Leader, what’s your advice to her? Because she’s got a big day ahead of her, she’s got an important Question Time coming up at 2 o’clock this afternoon, you’ve been in politics just as long as she has, you obviously know Sussan quite well, is she the person to turn around the fortunes of the Coalition?
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Absolutely, and Anthony Albanese is going to have to be careful about the narrative, and the language, and the robustness. Sussan Ley is not Peter Dutton, but she is going to be a very, very good Opposition Leader, and I’ve got every faith in Sussan to lead the Coalition. I’m a friend of hers, yes, I am I think she’s going to do a great job and you know, watch this space at 2 o’clock today, should be very interesting. I think she’ll handle herself very, very well, she’s been around the Parliament since 2001, she knows her way around, she knows exactly what’s needed, and I think she’ll provide it.
MARK LEVY
Well, Michael, can I say this to you, as much as I’ve thrown a couple of curly questions at you, I am totally on board with what you’re saying today about net zero. Ridiculous, especially when you look at what’s happening around the world. The world today burns nearly double the amount of coal than it did in 2000, four times the amount it did in 1950, every minute of every day 16,700 tonnes of coal are excavated from the ground, enough to fill seven Olympic swimming pools, this is all in a column on the weekend by Chris Uhlmann, 57 per cent of the world’s coal is burned in China. They’re all the big emitters. What do we emit in Australia? 1 per cent.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
And they’re also the big producers and we’re having a productivity forum led by Jim Chalmers soon and, you know, he doesn’t like to talk about the coal and resources and iron ore and everything, he calls it the things we sell overseas. I mean they want to reduce our stock, reduce our herd because they produce emissions. I mean, this is madness, this is madness. Let’s face it, and it’s ruining regional communities.
MARK LEVY
When we talk about Jim Chalmers, even his idol, Paul Keating is off him, so, anyway, we’ll leave it there. Michael, thanks for the time and obviously …
MICHAEL McCORMACK
… Good man …
MARK LEVY
… a big couple of weeks in Canberra.
MICHAEL McCORMACK
Talk soon. Thanks, Mark.
MARK LEVY
Michael McCormack, Federal Member for Riverina. So, there you are, we’re finally starting to get some common sense from within The Nationals. Firstly, from Barnaby Joyce and now Michael McCormack. Net zero, pointless! Get rid of it! 100 per cent! What is the point of a net zero target, what is the point of the Paris Agreement, when the world’s biggest emitters are not signed up to it. Little old Australia produces 1 per cent of the world’s emissions, and what do we hear from Canberra? We should be Captain Planet”, we should go and save the environment. Turn it up! Talk about facing an uphill battle that Sussan Ley has at the moment in the Parliament. The uphill battle is reaching and achieving net zero, when the rest of the world is building more coal-fired power plants, more nuclear-powered plants and what are we doing? Oh, we’re gonna put up wind turbines the size of Crown Casino at Barangaroo. Ridiculous!