Have Your Say

TRANSCRIPT: 2LF INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD SPENCE

28 January 2026

Subjects: Hate speech laws, Coalition split for second time, Australia Day celebrations

E&OE 

 

Richard SPENCE

Joining me on the phone this morning, Federal Member for Riverina, the Nationals’ Michael McCormack. Good morning, Michael.

 

Michael McCORMACK

Good morning, Rich.

 

Richard SPENCE

Now firstly, for the second time within 12 months last week the Liberals-Nationals Coalition split. What led to this separation, and will it prove more damaging this time round?

 

Michael McCORMACK

Well, time will tell. But what led to it was three senators who voted against the hate speech legislation, and because the shadow cabinet had taken a position on the legislation, and they opposed the bill, then they were in one sense obligated because they went against the shadow cabinet position to hand in their resignations. Now, normal convention is that. But we did have a normal week last week. It wasn’t a conventional week as such, because the legislation that went before the shadow cabinet on the Sunday night at 7:00pm was vastly different in wording to the legislation which went before the House introduced by Michelle Rowland, the Attorney-General, at 11:21 a.m. on the Tuesday morning. Michaelia Cash and Paul Scurrah and Jonno Duniam had worked with Labor to ensure that those concerns that many Coalition members had, including myself, about free speech and the attack on free speech were taken out of the bill. I voted in favour of the bill because I felt it was the only way, the only legislation that was before the House in the foreseeable future to get rid of the National Socialist Network, the neo-Nazis, those terrible jihadists and those radical Islamist groups which are pouring hatred and calling for violence throughout Australia and being anti-Jew. So I voted in favour of the legislation for that. But I understand that others, on principle, didn’t see it that way and were still concerned about some aspects of the bill. It was very rushed legislation we only had in the House of Representatives an hour and a half to debate it. It’s normally debated for as long as speakers want to speak on the bill. But even in that regard, there was a very limited number of speakers there, and they were only allowed five minutes each instead of the normal 15. So it wasn’t a conventional week. Those resignations were accepted by the Coalition leader, the Liberal leader, Sussan Ley. And the two leaders hadn’t spoken for most of Wednesday. And unfortunately, when you’re playing phone tag, sometimes things happen. And they did. Sussan accepted them. The three senators and then they were followed by the rest of the Nationals’ shadow cabinet. And it was all very unfortunate because on the day of what should have been national mourning and people were respecting that, unfortunately, there were politicians talking about themselves. In a day and age when people are hurting and they are because of the anti-Semitism and the December 14th attacks on Bondi Beach – where 15 beautiful, innocent lives were so tragically taken. People don’t want to hear politicians talk about themselves, not least of all, of course, because we’ve still got a cost-of-living crisis and people expect us to address that. So it all may feel very unfortunate. At the moment the Liberals and the Nationals are separate. Hopefully we can come together, and cool heads can prevail and we can get back together by next week when Parliament resumes on the Tuesday.

 

Richard SPENCE

You mentioned Labor’s new and rushed hate laws. I want to get back to that in a moment. But firstly the split comes as Pauline Hanson’s One Nation party, now with former Nationals MP Barnaby Joyce, is polling ahead of The Coalition. Now, Michael, you represent the Riverina electorate federally as a Nationals MP. Does the rising popularity of One Nation concern you in any way?

 

Michael McCORMACK

Well, you don’t take anything for granted and you never take any vote for granted. I appreciate that there is a surge in interest for One Nation at the moment, but that’s also based on a poll where only 1224 people were surveyed, were polled. At a time when there is a lot of friction, it is time and there’s a people doing it tough, people will lodge a protest vote with a pollster who phones them, and whether that equates to votes at a general election, that remains to be seen. If we had have followed the polls and if the polls were correct back in 2019, The Coalition wouldn’t have won that election. We’d now have The Voice enacted. Because all the polls were telling us that 60-70% of Australians were in favour of The Voice to Parliament, when in fact it was the opposite, which was very much the case. So you often get polling done, particularly in city electorates. That’ll tell you one thing. And when Australia and particularly regional Australia votes, it’s quite often also the opposite. So look, I don’t take to too much into account with the polls. Even when they were in our favour, I always thought, well, the only poll that really counts is an election. And we’ll wait and see what happens over the next couple of years leading up to the next federal election.

 

Richard SPENCE

Michael. Now, separate to the hate laws, the proposed gun law reforms and the gun buyback scheme, it’s been rejected by state governments in Queensland and Tasmania, along with the Northern Territory Government that’s mainly concerned about the 50-50 cost split between the Albanese and state governments. You are against this proposal as it stands. Would it affect farmers negatively and impact the way they manage their livelihoods for gun club members, competitive shooters…

 

Michael McCORMACK

We will see changes in the number of weapons they can own. And of course, if you’re going to be shooting rabbits and you’re going to be shooting larger animals, well, sometimes you need different guns to be able to do just that. Farmers need to be able to have guns to rid the properties of feral pests. Pigs, deer in some places, rabbits, etc. So look, it is an issue. A number of farmers, hunters, collectors, recreational shooters, indeed sporting enthusiasts who happen to like trap shooting, you know, they bombarded offices throughout the country with their views. I appreciate there are people who would like to see less guns. And we’ve got that situation at the moment where we’ve got, both in north-east Victoria and Lake Cargelligo. We’ve still got people on the run who have taken lives using guns. So it is an issue I get that’s out in the community. But it wasn’t like 1996, in Port Arthur, where we had somebody who was indiscriminately killing people, you know, people who’ve just happened to turn up to that park on that day. What we saw at Bondi was two people filled with hate and rage, deliberately targeting Jews. So it’s a completely different matter. I know they say there’s more guns in Australia now than they were at the time of Port Arthur. But there’s also 10 million more people. So there’s a lot of pros and cons. I voted against the legislation again. It was rushed. We only had an hour and a quarter to debate it. Very few people got to speak on it, and I speak in the House of Representatives more than any other federal member. There’s 150 of them. I wasn’t given the opportunity to speak on all the bills. I was on the list. But Labor put a management motion in and cut the speaking off and then put it to the vote, which is I think undemocratic and goes against everything they said when they took office in May 2022. And they said we’ll be more transparent. But unfortunately, they haven’t been.

 

Richard SPENCE

I guess when it comes to the number of guns people can own, a lot of the city folk that are against that and want to put restrictions in. They just don’t understand as you touched on there, the farmers, they need different guns of different calibres for different jobs on their farm. So therefore they need multiple firearms.

 

Michael McCORMACK

Indeed. And there’s a lot of city people too who own guns, a lot of the hunters and collectors and people who happen to live in the suburbs in our metropolitan areas. It’s a situation where unfortunately, people who are law-abiding have sort of been brought into this unfairly, because generally speaking, it’s not those law-abiding people who are doing the sort of damage that was done at Port Arthur in 1996 and Bondi Beach on December 14th last year.

 

Richard SPENCE

Back to the new hate laws officially titled Combating Anti-Semitism Hate and Extremism Bill 2026. Now, contrary to many of your Nationals colleagues, as you mentioned before, they voted against this controversial and rushed and probably arguably incomplete bill. Now, I caught your appearance on SKY News last week, which you touched on a little earlier, just now. Quote: “I voted for the bill, even though I was uncomfortable with it, even though it’s been rushed legislation, even though I wasn’t given the opportunity to debate the bill on the floor of the House because it was essentially gagged by a management motion. But I voted for it.” This is your quote. It’s the only bill before the Parliament at the moment which is going to be able to outlaw neo-Nazi groups. You did go on to state, as you mentioned earlier, valid points regarding naming and shaming and outlawing certain extremist groups, deporting individuals associated with them. But you also said, though it was poorly drafted, as you mentioned, and given your admission and in your own words, that the bill was rushed, you were unable to debate it. Now, what I would like to know if you and others in Parliament have not been able to sufficiently apply your due diligence to that bill. Michael, how can the rest of us, millions of Australians, be expected to trust the Government that it’s the best thing for us going forward?

 

Michael McCORMACK

And that’s the big question. But into the bill were these words inserted: “the line is drawn where it should be drawn at serious harm. Harm of a kind that meets a criminal standard threshold. Harm by any organisation that impacts national security, that is the Director General’s concern. That is the test. Not discomfort, not disagreement, not merely ‘I don’t like what was said’.” I listened very carefully to the shadow ministers for the Opposition who had negotiated to get those words and others inserted in the bill and many of the words and a schedule taken out of the bill that we felt was an attack on free speech. They made sure that the bill won’t have the Director General of ASIO coming for the little secretary of the Knitting Nannas Club, who happens to get up and talk about something that’s politically incorrect. They’re not going to be now hauled before the courts. That might have been the case and the way the bill was originally written, and that I know a lot of people are out there, the jacking up about this particular bill. But the bill in its original form, that was written up and talked about and proposed by Labor and the Greens many, many months ago is nowhere near the bill that has finally been introduced and voted on and passed last week. They just two almost entirely different bills. And then that gets back to the Nationals resigning because, you know, when you’ve got a bill that is totally different then, and it was totally different from the Sunday to the Tuesday when it was introduced. They’re sort of saying, well it was an unconventional week, and I agree with them. But look, we’ll see what happens with the bill. We’ll see how it plays out. I noticed that one organisation has already taken down their website, and the National Socialist Network has dissipated. So, already there has been some good to come of the bill already. There has been an arrest made by some fellow who got up and spouted anti-Jew and, pro-Nazi stuff at a rally. So in effect, if that is the bill at work, then that is effective. You have to say, well hopefully that going to rid this country, this peace loving, law-abiding country, of the hate that we’ve seen all too often, all too recently.

 

Richard SPENCE

And a lot of people I see, absolutely disgusting, the burning of the Australian flag. The Prime Minister has flat out refused to include that in this bill. Why? Why should the burning the flag not be a criminal offense?

 

Michael McCORMACK

Well, I asked the same question. I wonder myself, and it should be. I mean, you see unfortunately, not only the burning of the Australian flag, which is reprehensible, you see that the flying of the Al-Qaeda and ISIS flags at protests, such as that which took place on the 3rd of August last year on the Sydney Harbor Bridge. It’s simply not good enough. I’ve seen more Palestinian flags in Australia than I’ve seen Australian flags in recent times, notwithstanding the fact that there were plenty of Australian flags just this week on Australia Day. That was great to see and patriotic to see. But we’ve seen all too often, on the steps of the Opera House and Sydney Harbor Bridge, our Australian flag and the flag under which many, many people have fought and given their lives for this nation, and people love it and abide by it, being burnt, which is just so, so bad.

 

Richard SPENCE

To add weight to why it should be a criminal offense – there is an official Australian Government website, the website of the Prime Minister and Cabinet that has a list of protocols of how to respect the flag, how to deal with the flag. One particular point in there, states when the material the flag deteriorates, it may be either placed in a permanent place of storage or destroyed privately and in a dignified way, such as cutting it into small, unrecognisable pieces. That’s from this government website.

 

Michael McCORMACK

The website of the Prime Minister himself.

 

Richard SPENCE

That’s right. Yet they refuse to criminalise the burning of our national flag. I find that outrageous.

 

Michael McCORMACK

Oh, I couldn’t agree more. And I think most of your listeners would agree.

 

Richard SPENCE

Okay, so hopefully that will come into effect very, very soon. Hopefully that will be a commonsense decision.

 

Michael McCORMACK

It won’t come into effect because we put a bill before the Parliament last week, and it was defeated. So Philip Thompson has been all about this for some time. Former veteran, Young Australian of the Year nominee, and he’s the member for Herbert up in Townsville. So you know, a proud Australian who has a very, very good op-ed in some of the Nine newspapers today.

 

Richard SPENCE

Yeah, but it’s a form of hate, burning the same flag. It is a form of hate. So why are people not being arrested for it?

 

Michael McCORMACK

They should be.

 

Richard SPENCE

Moving on to lighter things now. Better things. Australia Day on Monday. It was a hot day in our area, but a lot of people are out and about celebrating with the Australian flags out, as you mentioned, and the Citizen of the Year for Young, you’ve got some details on that one.

 

Michael McCORMACK

Ted Weber was the Young Citizen of the Year. Joshua Cameron was the Junior Citizen of the Year. Mackenzie Platt and Eliza Taylor won Sportspersons of the Year. And Jennings Mower and Saws won Young Business of the Year. At Boorowa, Angus Clements was the Citizen the Year. At Harden, Sarah and Andrew Jones won the Citizens of the Year and at Wombat Cassie Simpson was the Wombattian Citizen of the Year. So great to see right across the Hilltops Council area. So many people giving of themselves so selflessly. And I tell you what, Rich, we couldn’t do without those volunteers. Good thing that they get acknowledged on Australia Day. It’s a shame more people don’t put those people up for OAMs, because there is that opportunity to get them even further recognised in the honours list. Certainly locally, we had many, many citizens, not just across Hilltops, but across all the regional local government areas in the Riverina and beyond, doing so much and being acknowledged for their efforts. And we thank them very much.

 

Richard SPENCE

We certainly do. As you mentioned, without volunteers, we wouldn’t function as a nation, really, without the good volunteers that do all sorts.

 

Michael McCORMACK

100%. It’s not just sport; it’s across rotary and it’s all areas of endeavour. And of course, at the moment the Rural Fire Service and the State Emergency Service, you know, they do such a power of work, not just in summer, but all year round. I’ll tell you what, those people are the glue that binds this nation together. And we thank them earnestly for their efforts and for their selfless efforts, because often you get the disasters strike and incidents happen in the dead of night. You often get them on Christmas Eve. And when other people are celebrating and watching the tennis or the cricket or spending time with families on important occasions, these people are being phoned up, having to go and put on their uniforms, go out and grab a hose or try and extricate people from vehicles if they’ve overturned etc., out on the road. So they do a great job and we thank them very, very much.

 

Richard SPENCE

They certainly do. And we’re going through some extremes at the moment right across the nation. The heat in New South Wales. It’ll be a warm one today. Stay inside if you can, get to the air conditioning, get to the local library.

 

Michael McCORMACK

And remember our pets too, because sometimes pets go forgotten. So remember to make sure that they’ve got a bit of shade and more importantly, got a bit of water. That’s a really important aspect. And whatever you do people, don’t leave kids in a car, even if it’s for 30 seconds. It is an offense. Kids or pets should be taken out of cars if you’re going shopping, because those cars can end up like an oven within a matter of minutes. It’s really important to remember, I can’t stress that enough. People might even leave the car on. But no, take the kids with you to go into the shop, and come back out. I know it’s an inconvenience to get them out of seat belts and everything else, but it might well save their lives. And it’s an offense to leave a kid in a car, as we know. So it should be. So just take care of that regard.

 

Richard SPENCE

Thank you very much, Michael. We’ll catch up with you again next month.

ENDS

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